Daydreaming: A RWD econobox

"Biased Plies" (biased-plies) 02/03/2014 at 15:25 • Filed to: Daydreaming

4

61

It's a good time to be an automotive enthusiast. The small, affordable rear-wheel-drive coupe is back in style, Fiat and Alfa Romeo (soon) are back in North America, there is a healthy selection of sports cars and a multitude of sporty compacts. And that's just North America, Europe has an even wider selection of all things appealing to Jalops.

What more could we ask for? How about an econobox sending its motive power to the rear wheels.

What do we want?

Let's start off by talking about one specific brand, BMW. The Bavarians build basically everything I and many other Jalops have a hankering for. Foregoing their need to create and fill every possible niche in the automotive market, at their core they build cars that are rear wheel drive, available with a manual (the relevant ones at least) and are generally nice to drive. The problem is that they are BMWs and therefore relatively expensive (notwithstanding the usual BMW driver arguments).

Solution? A no-frills rear-wheel-drive platform for the common man. Think compact or midsize, Corolla or Camry, in both size and price. 2 or 4 doors, sedan, hatch or wagon? Any and all of the above please. This isn't a new idea of course - hell, the Corolla was once rear wheel drive - it's just a revival.

Who might have the balls to do it?

First off, this isn't a game for the luxury manufacturers. BMW, Mercedes and Lexus already (still) make primarily rear-driven vehicles but this isn't their market. This is meant for the blue-collar manufacturers and I could see an opportunity for most of them to do it; I guess I'm the optimistic type.

Scion would be a perfect place for Akio Toyoda to experiment with making Toyota exciting again. Honda has been dying in the eyes of enthusiasts for several years now; an affordable rwd car would bring a complete 180 to that opinion. Mazda already skews to fun-to-drive, this might be right up their alley. Hyundai and Kia are making excellent cars now, rear wheel drive could bring some excitement to their lineup. Chevy, Dodge and Ford could equally change the game and the American public would surely be receptive of some homegrown return to our roots, if you will.

As for the most likely, I don't know. I am but an armchair-enthusiast typing up my random musings.

Can it be done and would it sell?

Of course it can be done. It will be more expensive than a comparable front wheel drive car, yes, but it need not be excessively so. Heck, when Subaru can bring us a compact driving all 4 wheels for under $20K, surely the same can be done for rear wheel drive.

In short, I think it could sell. In the same way the muscle car brought affordable power to the everyman, a cheap rwd econobox could bring simple fun to the masses. The first to market would be the biggest success, especially if it takes everyone by surprise. Further down the line, maybe the segment crowds up, maybe it stays reserved to a few brave manufacturers. Who knows.

Will it ever happen?

That's probably the most relevant question and unfortunately the answer is 'probably not'. A man can dream though, can't he?

All images sourced from !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

GhostZ > Biased Plies 02/03/2014 at 15:29

2

Chevy won't do it.

But this has already been greenlit for production. It's the closest to reality that I've seen so far.

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > Biased Plies 02/03/2014 at 15:30

2

"Europe has an even wider selection of all things appealing to Jalops."

While I do agree that Western Europe has always had the biggest variety of offerings, it can be argued that the differences between NA and Euro customers (e.g. preference of diesel over petrol, station wagons over sedans, handling over brute force, etc.) are the main reason for which those offers are more "appealing" to Jalops. Because they're viewed as oddballs and cool on one side, while on the other they're popular and trusted enough to generate significant sales numbers.

Biased Plies > GhostZ 02/03/2014 at 15:31

1

It depends on where they place it in the market. If they play it as a small sports car like the Toyobaru then it's not what I'm talking about it. If they market it as something simpler and cheaper, it will be. I have a feeling the IDx will be more of the former but I guess we'll see...

duurtlang > Biased Plies 02/03/2014 at 15:32

1

BMW offers this. RWD, and cheap(ish)

Biased Plies > duurtlang 02/03/2014 at 15:35

1

That's exactly why I mentioned them in my post. That is precisely the car I and perhaps most of us want. I just want its format to be more common and affordable.

GhostZ > Biased Plies 02/03/2014 at 15:35

0

It's already being marketed as a simpler sedan-based 4 seater RWD car. the Nismo version is looked to be more of a sports car, but this car is intended to be bought as a "lifestyle" car that people use for transportation/commuting.

Biased Plies > GhostZ 02/03/2014 at 15:37

0

We can only hope that philosophy makes it through to the production version. I for one strongly do.

duurtlang > Biased Plies 02/03/2014 at 15:38

0

I just looked up prices in Germany. The 1-series starts at €22k and the FR-S (Toyota GT-86) at €30.5k. For €30.25 BMW offers the 125i, which offers more power than the FR-S.
(all prices including sales tax)

GhostZ > Biased Plies 02/03/2014 at 15:41

0

Since the new Z is getting a turbo 2.5l (likely a QR version) I don't think they'll make this use the same engine, so it will most likely get the MR16DDT that's in the Juke.

I think the limit here is transmission. They have to develop a RWD transmission for most of their engines, and if they're not using the Z engine in this car in the interest of fuel economy and cost, (and they certainly wouldn't use the existing VQ engines) then they have to build a ground-up RWD manual and automatic transmission, and if they do the Nismo version, a third paddle-shift one, under the promise that it wouldn't be shared with most of their other cars. That's a lot of R/D for a "cheap" car.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Biased Plies 02/03/2014 at 15:44

1

Goshen, formerly Darkcode > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 02/03/2014 at 15:47

0

If only they had moved the fucking fuel tank out of the way.

KirkyV > Biased Plies 02/03/2014 at 15:48

0

The more pedestrian, regular consumer version of this is going to be RWD. Despite my love of FWD hot and warm hatches, I'm quite excited about it.

...

Just to nitpick, I don't really think that picture of a - lovely - Mk 1 Escort works as an example of the American roots to which one of the big three might return. It's about as European as a Ford of Europe product gets, and I'm sure there are better examples from Ford's American lineup.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Goshen, formerly Darkcode 02/03/2014 at 15:51

0

You mean, if only they covered the diff bolts.

The gas tank placement wasn't the issue.

Biased Plies > duurtlang 02/03/2014 at 15:51

0

That's the difference between the North American and European car markets. Those differences will be due to the emissions taxes. Those don't exist or are not as prevalent in North America.

Here the 1-series starts at $36K (Canada) where an FR-S is $10K less. The lack of the smaller engines that are available in Europe in the Bimmer are the main reason for the price difference in this case. Those commuter models don't exist here.

For reference where does something like a Civic, Corollo (Auris?) or Astra fall for price (let's say something that's not too anaemic: 120-140hp or so)? It's those that I want to compare to. If the 1-er is indeed comparable to those then it is actually a valid competitor to what I'm suggesting.

Biased Plies > KirkyV 02/03/2014 at 15:52

1

That is a good point. I couldn't think of anything better at the time but now that I think about it maybe I'l replace the Escort with a Maverick.

jariten1781 > Biased Plies 02/03/2014 at 15:56

2

Drop a taller hatch body on a shortened FRS and you have a remade KP61 Starlet. I'd be all over that.

Textured Soy Protein > Biased Plies 02/03/2014 at 15:58

1

BMW doesn't sell their economical (a.k.a. slow) motor options in North America, and particularly not in the USA, because unlike in Europe where fuel is so ridiculously expensive and every brand has similarly slow cars, here they would seem cheap.

But hey, the 228i starts at $32,100 USD.

Biased Plies > GhostZ 02/03/2014 at 16:03

0

If they can sell enough of them the economics are there. Like you say, it is more expensive but they might be able to make use of a Z-car transmission with cheaper lighter duty interals and a different bellhousing so it's not too complicated.

Someone would just have to take the risk...

duurtlang > Biased Plies 02/03/2014 at 16:04

0

No emission taxes in Germany on new cars at all, as far as I'm aware. Only slightly increased ownership taxes. It's the exact reason why I picked Germany and not my own country, the Netherlands, where we do have those taxes. In the Netherlands, before sales tax and emission tax: BMW 114i ED: €17.5k, BMW 125i: €25.9k, Toyota GT86: €23.4k.

Let's go back to Germany. Prices, as advertised on the website of the manufacturer (prices already including 19% sales tax/VAT):
Toyota Auris 1.3 (99 hp): €16k
Toyota Auris 1.6 (132 hp): €22.8k

Honda Civic 1.4 (100 hp): €17k
Honda Civic 1.8 (1.42 hp): €19k

Opel Astra 1.6 (115 hp): €17k
Opel Astra 1.4T (140 hp): €20k

GoliathRex > KirkyV 02/03/2014 at 21:38

0

what is this? More please.

GoliathRex > Biased Plies 02/03/2014 at 21:42

0

I'm playing devils advocate here- is it supercritical for a car to be RWD to be daily fun? Few people will ever autocross their new car.

I posit that the following features are more important for daily fun than RWD:

lightweight

low CG

Hatchback! (for more practicality in a smaller package)

motor with "character"

Ill go hide now.

KirkyV > KirkyV 02/04/2014 at 11:43

0

Biased Plies > GoliathRex 02/04/2014 at 11:46

0

No, it's not. I should mention that I don't think RWD to be a requirement for fun. There are many excellent, fun FWD cars. I've got a Mazda3 and it's plenty of fun.

I just think that in this day an age, a rwd econobox would be a great novelty and could be an excellent platform for modifications.

KirkyV > GoliathRex 02/04/2014 at 11:50

0

Meet the Renault Twin'Run:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/Rena…

It's essentially a preview of what the next generation Renault Twingo is going to look like. The Top Gear article has more details.

Biased Plies > duurtlang 02/04/2014 at 11:54

0

Ah, the Bimmer is indeed what I'm looking for then, it just doesn't exist in North America. BMWs are not as pedestrian/commonplace here. Not to say they're not used as commuters, they just maintain a higher [perceived] profile.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > Biased Plies 02/06/2014 at 05:25

0

I know this is an old subject, but Toyota did have a RWD econobox in the field. It's just... Well, in Southeast Asia.

Shoop > Biased Plies 02/11/2014 at 15:09

2

this is why my Cygnet in Fourza is rwd

Serious Gord > Biased Plies 02/11/2014 at 15:10

0

A barely used 6 cylinder mustang doesn't work for you?

ScottyMc > Biased Plies 02/11/2014 at 15:19

1

The sad thing is I learned to drive in basically that Opel. It was a 69' Opel Kaddett and the synchros were gone in 2nd so you had to hold it in gear. My dad taught me in the parking lot of the local community college while my sister had soccer practice.

Shoop > Shoop 02/11/2014 at 15:19

0

SO TWITCHY

Zundfolge > Biased Plies 02/11/2014 at 15:19

1

Any car that is currently produced as an AWD vehicle could easily be built as a RWD.

alan > Biased Plies 02/11/2014 at 15:25

1

i will always regret not buying a pontiac G8. it was like a an affordable 5 series. aussies get all the fun

Thisnewformatisrubbish > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 02/11/2014 at 15:42

0

"cheaper to let em burn"

Cι hι sin > KirkyV 02/11/2014 at 15:55

0

If you mean the red car at the top, it's actually an Opel Kadett. Similar vintage to the Mk 1 Escort though.

fiveseven808 > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura 02/11/2014 at 16:35

0

What is this?

everycarneedsanls > Biased Plies 02/11/2014 at 16:46

1

My ideal car would be a RWD 2-door hatch with one of the new generation turbo 3 cylinder engines (bmw, ford, chevy and others all have recently released them). Make it as light as possible with double wishbones or better on all four corners and we have the perfect city/commute care: light, compact, fuel efficient, more useful than a miata, and fun to drive.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > fiveseven808 02/11/2014 at 16:46

0

Toyota Innova.

Reigntastic > GoliathRex 02/11/2014 at 17:01

1

I'm on the fence about this. I've been in the market for a DD for a while, and although I really like the new offerings, the FWD in the majority of them is a souring factor for me. I've driven cars with both RWD and FWD as my DD before, and although I absolutely had fun in my FWD car, the majority of that fun was accelerating in a straight line and laughing as the fronts struggled to put power down. I don't find plowing through turns with understeer to be much fun at all, and RWD definitely shines in making curves fun. The handling dynamics are better and power is put down much easier.

I can have fun in a FWD car too, I just find that it's much less entertaining and in the long run I get bored of it.

KirkyV > Cι hι sin 02/11/2014 at 18:22

0

Ah, no. There had been a picture of a Mk 1 Escort where that brown American car is now.

CentralScrutinizer > Biased Plies 02/11/2014 at 18:26

0

Make a simple light weight car that can be used for commuting and for fun. Simple HVAC with just nobs. If it has rear seats make them removable too add lightness for MPG and fun days when you may have no passengers. Make anything you can removeable for times when you don't need it.

Bare bones, only have power window on passenger side for when your solo and need cross vent.

Screw soft touch surfaces and interior refinement , especially places I don't spend time caressing. Put a spot that will secure a cheap GPS without to much fuss and good placement. Forgo carpeting.

Make it durable easy to service. Good aero. 2500 lbs and 220 + hp with some torque. I don't care if it looks like a Turd if its cheap, light, simple, durable and gets great MPGs.

Have an Alky system with different maps so you can run in economy on cheap gas and then have the Alc kick in when you want to play and need more timing or boost.

This way you can have a dual purpose car and put high miles and beat on it and have another car when you need to take people, your family etc, road trip, impress people or bask in luxury and technology.

Dent resistant panels , I don't even need paint. Just an appliance that will also be exciting to drive even if it doesn't impress anybody.

That's my fantasy car.

Nonster > Biased Plies 02/11/2014 at 18:27

1

I really wish chevy would do it and bring back the Vega nameplate. Yeah the original was a POS, my dad had one and has told me all about how terrible it was, but I think its been dead long enough.

Also, I remember hearing that toyota was wanting to do another rwd sporty car to fall in the price range below the GT86/FRS. I wouldn't get my hopes up but hey at least they're thinking about it

DarthDuster > KirkyV 02/11/2014 at 18:39

0

And I think the only reason the economics of this are possible is because it will platform share with the next Smart.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Biased Plies 02/11/2014 at 19:04

2

You do realize that FRS/GT-86 is intended to be the resurrection of the last RWD Corolla, the AE-86, right?

It could have been a new MR2, if they had put the boxer engine behind the driver.

It could have been a new Celica if they had given it the hatchback it should have had, and H6 power, at least optional.

It could have been the new 2.5RS or even better as a WRX or 20B STI coupe, if Subaru had kept it's BRZ version as AWD, with Impreza's floor pan and front end geometry.

But no, they targeted the stick-axle AE86, who's claim to fame was affordability. It had a stick-axle, and a 4-cylinder engine, as a hold-over from the E70 generation Corollas, while the early-80's Corolla sedan had already moved to front wheel drive.

AE86 is popular, because kids could start to afford the early-80's coupes by the late 80's and early 90s, with low resale value, yet they were RWD, with a bullet-proof DOHC engine in the GT-S model... and they started hopping them up and racing with them... because they were cheaper than a Mustang, F-body, or StarQuest, and not FWD like so many others.

So... what you want exists... it is the Scion FR-S, and to a certain point, the Subaru BRZ, although the Scion is more affordable.

They are marketed as sporty, but with 200hp... they are likely as economical as a naturally-aspirated, non-hybrid, RWD coupe is going to get... and probably about as low priced as they'll get, too... because platform sharing a cheap RWD platform with other cars is unlikely... other cars will stay FWD for packaging and easy manufacturing.

TownaceNoah > Biased Plies 02/11/2014 at 19:35

0

Next generation Twingo will be RWD. And rear engine.

Biased Plies > TownaceNoah 02/11/2014 at 20:21

0

A smart car is not what I'm looking for but I'll reserve judgement until the production version comes around.

Biased Plies > CentralScrutinizer 02/11/2014 at 20:23

0

Exactly. The alky system might be asking a bit much but for the rest this is exactly what I want. Rwd, Utilitarian, reliable, simple, perfect.

Biased Plies > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 02/11/2014 at 20:30

0

Of course I realize what the Toyobaru is intended to be, a sports car harking back to the AE86 (what it became), but that is not what I'm asking for. I'm not asking for a sports car. I do realize it's economical but that's not it's primary intent. Affordable sportiness is.

So what I'm asking for does not exist. (aside from the [commuter] small-engined 1-series hatches available in Europe that have already been brought up in the comments)

I'm asking for a truer return to the AE86. An economy car that just happens to be rwd. Eg. Cheaper than the FR-S and more practical (liftback like you mentioned) wouldn't hurt but other options, 4 or 5 doors, are preferable for practicality.

No Prius Needed > Shoop 02/11/2014 at 20:32

0

Its surprisingly good at drifting though.

KurtAKX > Biased Plies 02/11/2014 at 20:52

0

All these comments basically sound like "I wish BMW still made E30s"

TownaceNoah > Biased Plies 02/11/2014 at 21:06

1

Yeah. No love for the Smart from me either. The Twingo at least has four seats and a real transmission.

Biased Plies > KurtAKX 02/11/2014 at 21:18

0

I do wish they still made the e30, but it was never really an economy car, despite the intentions of the 318i or 325e (notwithstanding the 316i or 324d not offered in North America).

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Biased Plies 02/11/2014 at 23:10

1

A practical car... RWD, never going to happen. Not anymore.

It only happened before, because everything was already setup that way. Now everything is setup for FWD platforms, and RWD is the exception that requires a specific reason, such as sporty handling, or big luxury car reputation.

It is cheaper to assemble the drivetrain as a unit, and lift it up into the front end of the car, and drive the front wheels.

People see it as safer in bad weather.

Engineers see it as easier to produce

Product planners see it as more available interior space.

If there is no sport intention, there is no reason to be RWD, unless the engine is in the back, like a Smart car.

And a "truer" return to AE86 is a further waste of the opportunity of what FT-86 could have been as an AWD coupe, or a mid-engined RWD sports car.

AE86 was never a sports car, which is why I am somewhat disappointed that they chose that target for the FT-86 project. A sports car is not an 'economy car', even if a sports car can be economical to run. AE86 became cheap, simple tuner speed well after Corolla had moved on to FWD for the then-new models.

Celica was a better sport coupe, Supra was a better, faster Grand Tourer and top end model, and MR2 was a better handling sports car, and just as reliable and economical as Corolla ever was, just not as practical inside the cabin.

The car you suggest would require a specific platform designed for it, or just simply a scaled-down FR-S, which would dilute that model.

It simply won't be as economical as building Yaris as it is, with FWD, and thus the point is moot. There is no point for a car like that to be RWD anymore.

I would rather they spend their time building affordable performance than a redundant econobox with RWD that doesn't have a specific reason to exist. Practical is fine with FWD. Build a new MR2, like a modern-day SW20... a half-price junior Cayman that a working stiff can buy and really enjoy after work. Toyota builds other practical cars... like a Venza or a Highlander, that are a LOT better at being truly practical.

JasonStern911 > GhostZ 02/11/2014 at 23:11

1

Actually, if any manufacturer would do it, I could see it being GM. Just expect a car in Scion FR-S/base Camaro price territory assembled from the parts bin that gets killed off right as the engineers start to make it good.

leftinvt > GoliathRex 02/11/2014 at 23:22

0

And that it will go uphill in more than an inch of snow!

Alex87f > duurtlang 02/12/2014 at 03:55

0

Well yes and no, 30k will get you a stipper 125i with less equipment than an FR-S and a chassis that doesn't compare.

In addition, the discount policies between both brands are very different. You can find already registered 0-miles GT-86's for less than 22k€ including sales tax. A similarly equipped 125i will be hard to find under 30k.

Biased Plies > BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. 02/12/2014 at 07:33

0

I'm aware of the benefits of- and reasons for choosing fwd and know full well how unlikely my idea is. I don't need to be told what I already stated in my post:

Will it ever happen?

That's probably the most relevant question and unfortunately the answer is 'probably not'.

I know AE86 was never a sports car, I stated as much in my last reply. Also, I'm not asking FT-86 to be something other than what it is. I'm quite happy with it being a sports car and being targeted the way it is; it works.

What I'm asking for needn't be redundant, it would just be novel. What if Scion build a rwd car to replace one of their existing models [say the tC or xD]. I know it would be a bit more expensive and less economical but not necessarily excessively so.

This wasn't just about Toyota but on the point of building such a thing on the Toyobaru platform, I think you're wrong when you say it would dilute the model. As long as the looks are different enough (while using the underlying structure: eg. front clip, floorpan [perhaps stretched, as needed], rear subframe [mounts], etc) the separation would be big enough to limit ties to the little sports car.

Again, it's all theoretical, I maintain it's possible, that it could sell and that it just as well will probably never happen.

It'd be nice though, wouldn't it?

willkinton247 > Biased Plies 02/12/2014 at 08:27

1

I see your RWD econobox, and I raise you a midengine, supercharged RWD EconoBOX!

A-J-I > Biased Plies 02/12/2014 at 08:48

0

You read my mind: http://petrolblog.com/2013/05/where-…

Biased Plies > A-J-I 02/12/2014 at 09:33

0

Hah, great minds think alike.

Nice read.

KurtAKX > Biased Plies 02/12/2014 at 16:20

0

If it was made today, (in the same spec) it would be an economy car. Sub-3000 lbs, manual seats, no Nav, no satellite, no stability control, manual trans, no backup cameras, no lighted cupholders, no noise cancellation systems, no simulated engine sounds, no electronic torque vectoring, etc.

Biased Plies > KurtAKX 02/12/2014 at 16:23

0

Not inaccurate but this is true for the spec of pretty much any luxury car made before 1990. It's just the progress of technology.